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Devoting only a single resource is a clear indication that WKO4 doesn't rank very high in the trainingpeaks 4 Key Uses for the PD Model. Just got me a sweet new powertap. I messed around with the poweragent software and the garmin training center software and wasn't too thrilled.

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Not impressed so far. Post 59 of views. Thank you. Generally,that helped until the next start of my system. WKO 4 is disappointing to me so far. Post 60 of views. Do you have an accented character in your name? It's only when I changed my name to not use accented characters that the problem disappeared more permanently.

Now if only I recalculate TSS scores Post 61 of views. Post 62 of views. Post 63 of views. Post 64 of views. Post 65 of views. Post 66 of views. Post 67 of views. Post 68 of views. Post 69 of views. Post 70 of views. Post 71 of views. Hookflash wrote:. Post 72 of views. I have a file that has bad power numbers that I edited in TrainingPeaks. It's weird.

EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out. Post 73 of views. Post 74 of views. Has anyone else noticed that WKO 4 and Trainingpeaks. Have the equations been changed or something? Post 75 of views. Post 76 of views. AlexS wrote:. Post 77 of views. Post 78 of views. Post 79 of views.

Post 80 of views. So are you saying that I cannot import my 4-years! Does importing the workout data work, including all workout comments, workout definitions, user-created laps etc.? Post 81 of views. From what I can tell from poking around over the weekend. All the workout metadata seems intact from what I can see.

I think I submitted 3 or 4 "issue" reports on things that seem to be not working properly over the weekend. Haven't figured out how to search or find workouts based on comments or tags yet. I also haven't done much playing around with the TP syncing yet. I had considered buying a Mac license to tide me through the 12 weeks, but there still seems to be enough roughness that I'll probably just wait until the Windows version comes out would be more than happy to beta test.

Also - you can run them in parallel - you just have to manage the data properly. Post 82 of views. Post 83 of views. Post 84 of views. Post 85 of views. Thanks, that clears things up! Post 86 of views. TP is I checked and all workouts have come across, so WKO4 is up to date, however the distance recorded for this week is off in WKO4. There is also a difference in duration between the two.

Post 87 of views. Post 88 of views. Hi mate, I was on build , just updated Still giving different PMC stats. Thanks for the tip on updating though! Also I deleted and re-imported some recent workouts post update, still no consistency with TP. Post 89 of views. Post 90 of views. What kind of rides does one need to do to get as accurate a mFTP as possible? For example, I do very little "all out" short durations. I am guessing my mFTP will be innacurate?

Is the trick to do the occasional all out effort at various points along the PD curve? I do have your 4xmultihr seminars queued up. Is the answer in there? Post 91 of views. Post 92 of views. Post 93 of views. Post 94 of views. Post 95 of views. That answer really cleared up the same question for me, as well. Could you explain a little bit the benefit of doing intervals or workouts following the zones based in the new individualized power levels vs the older percentage based power levels?

Post 96 of views. Post 97 of views. Post 98 of views. What would such a set do in this model. Would it end up raising my mFTP? Post 99 of views. Post of views. Hi mate, I had a close look. The data in TP aligns with what is in Garmin Connect and also with what I was reading on my Garmin before I ended the ride and saved the file.

For example, my work commute. I ride in, pause the Garmin, ride home after work. This is a 16km ride not much. TP and my Garmin say 16km. WKO says 8km but still registers the full correct ride time. Everything is consistent, Strava, TP, Garmin. WKO is the outlier reporting differently. So again this week, TP, Strava and Garmin connect all align. WKO is out of whack. For those on the fence I'd steer clear until they are a few versions in, as of right now it is busted. Have you contacted support?

Hi Rod, yes as above I have raised a support ticket. Will see what they come back with. I was going to give a review but noticed DCrainmaker just put one up that aligns with my primary thoughts. If you were a coach i could see the power duration model being quite nice as you can quickly ascertain proper interval power levels and figure out the power profile of a rider. The interface looks nice but is not necessarily intuitive, lots of bugs for myself in trying to get data to sync, and my training peaks premium settings did not transfer FTP, weight, etc.

In the end it is a fun tool but not worth when you can already get the same tools in TP premium. Coggan can make a better case why it would be useful for an individual. At Dr. WKO4 picks the datapoints for you. Here's what I've learned from that bar fight on the wattage forum: 1. WKO 4 might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or it could be the biggest sham perpetrated Some of the personalities involved on that forum are downright nasty in their arrogance and attacks 3.

If you are not a phd beware of attempting to participate and asking a "dumb" question. In fact, my conclusion is that some of the moderators encourage this behaviour. It's as if they think of this as their own personal phd locker room. Bottom line:I'm in no hurry to pay for wko4. Letting the dust settle on all of this and I will wait for more rational and down to earth people to review this product.

Kind of funny being that the very people they are turning off are the best potential advocates of the product Its definitely not more complicated to use than WKO 3. It also throws in the ability to examine all your data with lots of graphs, and it also uses that modeled FTP and your data to set personalized zones. The interface is definitely better, and it got a lot less buggy in the first two weeks after the Mac release.

However, the TP marketing guys are behind the eight ball on making the case as to whether the modeled FTP, graphs, and personalized zones are actually useful enough to a triathlete to justify spending the money. Currently, I don't feel like it is: Andrew Coggan wrote:. I'm just suprised that the PC version won't be available until the end of my season.

I suppose that gives me more time to work with GC. I'd been under the impression that Windows support was coming soon after the windows 10 release. With 3 people working on it, I'm not shocked that it is taking so long to roll that release and sort bugs, though. It does kinda feel like they rushed the Mac release out the door as if they needed to finally generate a little revenue after all the delays.

They're so focused on demonstrating how accurately the new PD curve models that they're only making the marketing campaign "Like new stuff? Like Mac support? Don't like FTP tests? Like fancy graphs? Buy now! There might even be some people more extreme than that. Ale Martinez. Ale Martinez wrote:. Things have gotten very quiet on the wattage forum. I think some people got put on a choke leash I certainly don't want to debate you here.

There has been a wide range of topics that I have participated in, including way back discussion on the polar chain tension power meter. My opinion is that the topics have become much narrower in scope, and the so called healthy debate is limited to a handful of people that know each other, and like to debate and trash talk each other.

For people like me who are outside this narrow circle, it is intimidating and unwelcoming. That's how I feel. I've also sent a similar message to the owner, in order to contribute in a positive way. Legs] [ In reply to ] Quote Reply. Legs wrote:.

In wko4 and TP it throws off your mmp curve, but wko4 uses a short data point in it it's modeling so it seems to be more sensitive. Either program allows you to go back and change that weird point to something more realistic. The first bug I have encountered during 1st trial week is that metrics are not being synchronised with TP.

Is this a bug or intended behaviour? I would not be happy having to maintain my weight in both tools. Buschan wrote:. I've still only barely scratched the surface with it, but am looking forward to digging into it more this winter. Trev wrote:. Isn't that as much a problem with how NP is calculated? Yes and no. I think it depends how a model uses NP in the calculations. Clearly i cannot sustain my max 1 hour NP, i know that from training my actual 1 hour power is around , but i have 1 hour NP's around which i could not sustain for average power.

But, just because i do not go out and slog out a minute interval at does not mean i am not physiologically capable of such an effort, that is where the statistical model comes in to make a calculation from my data. I am an all arounder with a continued focus on sprinting. I do a lot of minute intervals and occasionally a 40 minuter threshold interval, i have absolutely zero reason to go out and do a 1 hour test. Of course people will chime in and say the only real way to know is to test your 1 hour power, but if i am tapered and fresh i would rather test my 1,5,20 minute power than a 1hr power test as they are far more informative of how i will race.

I want the model to extrapolate from my data to give me a good estimate to base training zones off of and then corroborate these zones during training efforts. Thought normalised power was to give an estimation of the wattage you could have done if the effort was a sustained even effort? So you are saying the model is wrong? Why not extend your 40 minute effort to prove the model right or wrong?

Out of interest what is your 20 min and 40 minute average power? I can't see how the new model would underestimate if you have intervals that long. Yes an estimate of the power you could have maintained for the same physiological cost if your power output had been constant.

From TrainingPeaks By taking these factors into account, normalized power provides a better measure of the true physiological demands of a given training session - in essence, it is an estimate of the power that you could have maintained for the same physiological "cost" if your power output had been perfectly constant e. Keeping track of normalized power is therefore a more accurate way of quantifying the actual intensity of training sessions, or even races.

For example, it is common for average power to be lower during criteriums than during equally-difficult road races, simply because of the time spent soft-pedaling or coasting through sharp turns during a criterium. Assuming that they are about the same duration, however, the normalized power for both types of events will generally be very similar, reflecting their equivalent intensity. It's a totally different matter extending that effort to 60 minutes. The last 20 minutes will be considerably harder than the first.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of why your TT power was so low compared to your NP powers. The NP numbers suggest you should be able to do so much better in a TT. To throw in some possible reasons. Your position on TT bike compromises power substantially. Severe lack of motivation for the TT effort. The training you do has shifted your power curve to an extreme. Different power meter on TT bike?

NP is severely flawed. As we now have 2 people on this thread with the same example, its something worth looking into. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I'm asking questions to try and identify what seems to be an anomaly. FTP is the power you can sustain during a 25 mile TT. See Coggan's No1 from his 7 deadly sins. Interesting, I have the same experience regarding the ability to generate high NP numbers in rides with a high VI, while having much lower power in a steady state situation at FTP or higher intensity.

This has gotten much worse for me the last years, coincidentally also the years that I did not focus on shorter races and didn't do much interval training at FTP but have spent lots of training in Z2 and Z3. I wonder if this has something to do with it? For me, the biggest issue with FTP as a model is it is a big effort to go 60 minutes all out which is both hard to plan and achieve, so everyone takes shortcuts on it. Even if you do the test, it can be hard to find a road where the conditions are good and you can go for a full hour without stopping or having to slow down.

I bet most people test FTP in some method of 30 minutes or under, which leads to an issue of variability. IMO, life would be much simpler if we just adopted 20 minutes as a standard. That way we wouldn't need 20 different testing protocols to estimate and software to guess the number.

In triathlon its not as big a deal since if you're doing Oly and up those hour efforts are going to be a staple for training. For crit and road racers not so much. In racing, I haven't needed anything more than a 20 minute effort between rests, and usually its much lower like 3 minutes. Yeah, there are solo breakaways, but they're not all that common and training for it isn't the most efficient use of time.

Well if a system was built around a 20 minute duration at least it would be based on actual performance as opposed to estimated FTP and NP which is an estimation of the sort of power one might have produced if the effort was constant. As it is using FTP derived from a 20 minute test, or hard efforts, we have a system which quantifies training using an estimate of an estimate. You're pretty close to actually describing the critical power concept, which I think makes a lot of sense conceptually.

CP can be derived from a couple of shorter efforts with no interpolation, but FTP has so much traction that it provides a common language for folks to understand one another, and practically it doesn't seem like there's a vast difference in the real world whether you follow one concept or the other. Although some folks have argued FTP vs.

CP so passionately they just got the entire Wattage group temporarily shut down. I was looking more at rowing on a Concept2, where I look at m, m, m average power. Well I've done a 60 minute effort occasionally too. I can see FTP is relevant to cyclists doing 25 mile TTs but it seems to me people doing all other durations are being forced down the FTP route when that duration isn't really of any special importance.

So they end up doing tests that might not be practicable or relying on estimates. FTP is too vague and fuzzy for me. Why use something so vague which relies on estimates then NP which is another estimate to quantify training? Alex, thanks for the graphics and information. I created a PerfPro session for a non elite stepping up 25 watts each minute just to see if my equipment would play nice and it did.

I think my equipment is okay. Odd that in my typical training intervals there is a tough spike at the start but it didn't happen on these 1 minute steps. I may give this a try soon. I apologize for distracting others from the main topic of WKO 4. Andy: is there a way in WKO4 to make the MMP chart act like the one in previous versions, where if you hover over the curve at a certain duration it tells you the date of the workout when the MMP for that duration was achieved?

It does this in TP online, would be nice if it worked the same way in WKO so I don't have to keep going back and forth. Expanding on that, a more robust planning ability in the software would make it almost perfect. Other than that I'm loving WKO4. And the youtube videos are really helpful. Anyone else have the version that doesn't work?

Every time I import something the spiny wheel things comes up and eventually I have to kill the program. Not very useful at all to me - wouldn't really care except I paid a lot of money for this. Since you're posting, in the definition of FRC as " The total amount of work that can be done during continuous exercise above FTP before fatigue occurs ," how are you defining fatigue?

Thanks, with those two definitions the numbers start making sense. Is this so that these durations avoid "fatigue", or is it connected with some other physiological component e. Any update on the Windows release? Also, would like to whinge again about the pricing as a NZ resident. Damn expensive software. It seems like it should just be a line showing the rolling 7-day change in CTL, but I'm struggling to come up with an expression that creates it.

Any suggestions? This is something I really want to keep a better eye on since my historical data shows that I've repeatedly overcooked myself through a too-high ramp rate or letting TSB drop too low too fast which puts me in the same bin as everyone else, I'm sure. Hey man, thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

I think I'll stick with "wasting" my time on WKO4. I actually kind of enjoy it, and I think it has benefits. Good luck in all your training and racing. Stay safe out there. It wasn't rbuike, it was Hunter, on wattage. I've got it working now I think using this: tl tss,ctlconstant -shift tl tss,ctlconstant ,7 I changed the 7 to positive and that did it, the ramp rates seem to be matching up with my old-school Excel file training plan's rolling 7-day ramp rates now.

Thanks for the help, again. Eventually I'll get all these expressions figured out. GD image resizeing is killing me. Me too. LzBones wrote:. Kiwicoach wrote:. WKO 4. But then I have been a beta tester for last 18 months.

Starting to write all sorts of code for all the charts I want to see in it for different riders. I know better ways to increase testosterone than strength training. Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach. I now remember why I chose not to use this software in its previous incarnation. I know many of you love it and obviously figured how to upload your ride data, but I cannot for the life of me understand how Strava can get make it so easy an "Upload" button that allows you then to choose to load from a file or device while WKO makes it so difficult.

I have all of my. You'd think it would be easy to import these files into WKO, right? Are you telling me that the WKO application can't simply upload from a file on my desktop? OK, fine, I download the Device Agent. I move all my files onto that Device Agent and it crashes. Then there is a crash during the "Save" process. I get warning dialogues that re-Saving will create duplicate files.

I have no idea what files made it where and where "where" is. I try another route. I upload to my TrainingPeaks. OK, maybe this will work after all. The workouts are there in the online calendar view. Hey what's this in WKO? An option to "Sync with TrainingPeaks. This should bring them over to WKO, right?

Nothing happens. Tried multiple times, restarting application, etc. It just doesn't do anything. You would think these two products would work together in harmony since they are produced by the same company, right? Well, to my amazement, the manual tells me that in order to move files from TrainingPeaks. OK, at this point I give up. Device Manager has already left a bad taste in my mouth and I really can't figure out why I need yet a third piece of software to get TrainingPeaks.

Contrast with Strava. Do you want to upload files? Hey, we have an idea! Click the "Upload" button. And it actually works! I know you are a moderator on wattage where your moderation is somewhat biased but when did you become a moderator on this forum?

You should be annoyed with the people who sold you the software that doesn't work properly not me for pointing out you could have spent your time more constructively. You are adding greay value to this thread. Have you worked with trainingpeaks support yet? I have found them to be very responsive. Alex, Do you know how to modify the duration of data used for the P-D model from the default of 90 days?

Edge and XT. Yes, it seems that if I filter by run only run metrics are picked up. Ive found other issues with the expressions in other packs too now. Thanks, will try this out. Would be quicker and more intuitive than "Horizontal Zoom". There are other fields besides that one field that also have the same problem. These ones don't appear to have been addressed.

I can't for the life of me figure out how to fix the expressions either as some of them seem not to like the if statement. A few comments to the various replies: No one disputes that WKO and Training Peaks offer a whole 'nother level of features and functionality over Strava.

My only point is that Strava seems to have figured out a very simple and straightforward interface to upload ride data. I realize many folks have zero issues with getting their data uploaded to WKO, but the fact remains that there are several pages of the WKO user's manual dedicated to getting your ride data uploaded, with detailed instructions. Strava's upload interface doesn't need detailed instructions because it's simple and intuitive.

I will say, getting rides uploaded to TP. No issues there. For me, the issues arise on the WKO side. But I have been uploading power files for a while now I was a PowerTap Pilot Program participant, for those that remember those days!

I am using Pioneer PMs these days, so all rides get pushed to cyclo-sphere, which in turn pushes the ride to both Strava and TP. I am simply left to wonder why WKO doesn't have an "Upload" button. Ummm why do you need an upload button? Jctriguy wrote:. Hamish Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach. Nope, leave that as it is thanks. There's enough configurable stuff already! It's not just based on your best 20 min. It takes into account at least your best minute normalized power and minute average power plus some other factors that Dr Coggan won't disclose to prevent others from copying it.

Personally I suspect that it looks for repetition of similar high values over the last 90 days but I could be way off. I've found WKO4 to be mostly useful for analyzing past seasons' to see what kind of things I did that made a bigger difference. It's much easier to compare two seasons or any other time period and see them both on the screen either as a data table or as a graph.

For me, that was worth upgrading for. There's also a lot you can do with custom expressions and formulas, but I realize not everyone is into that. Hi Andrew, Not sure if this is the best place to discuss this but you can always point me to the right person if this is innapropriate.

I bought WKO 4. Let me specify that I tried all syncing options including manual syncing so that I'm sure it's not syncing that makes WKO 4 slow. To give you an idea, in my left bar I click on a workout, it takes like 20 seconds to open the workout in the mean time I have the multi-color circle instead of the arrow as mouse sign , then I click on workout title and start typing my title if I'm lucky I can write it all if I'm not I write 3 words and the computer start "thinking" again again multi-color circle instead of arrow.

Since my computer is I think up to the task of running WKO 4 do you have any idea what might be causing all those delays? I'm really hoping I can fix those issues soon as I understand the potential of WKO 4 and I really want to enjoy it and discover more of all its features, it's just that at this point I tend to loose patience when using it and do what I have to do to have all my workouts in WKO 4 and TP but I don't play with it much more as it just takes forever to open files, graphs, etc.

Thanks a lot in advance for your kind help. Any word on when the PC version will come out? Bruizer wrote:. Mike Plumb. Question for Dr. C, or anyone else that might be able to answer. Mike Plumb wrote:. Appreciate the help and great product. I noticed numbers on Monthly Summary Report seems to be skewed. Training Pekas and Strava show me October time and km, but on Montly Cycling Summary report it shows and Any clue how to fix that? Hey Dr Coggan, any way to get previous builds? I let it update and the latest build is a mess for me.

Can't sync without crashing. I ended up having to create a new athlete and it randomly crashes as it syncs. Swimming sync has been a problem for weeks but now it's sync in general. You'd really have to ask the folks at TrainingPeaks. My role in the development of WKO4 is simply that of a consultant. IOW, while I'd like to be able to help, there really isn't anything I can do. I'm having the same problem. I'm still on Build the update keeps failing on , and it's crashing every time I try to sync with TP.

Ticket time, I suppose. I am assuming you tried and Is it only for pedals such as the vector? Is it correct to say that GPA is power "wasted"? They have also fixed a few TP sync issues that were annoying for the swim. Things are much more stable now. The Zoro chart feature is cool. Should I be trying to get this down or am I wasting my time. Off season seems like the time to do it, if worthwhile Is cadence something to experiment with ie, do intervals at various cadences and look at the Zoro chart of each interval.

Or look at a scatter of Torque efficiency vs cadence? I just sent TP a request to see if they have a specific date. I suggest everyone do the same since Andrew has already stated he doesn't have any control over when they release the PC version.

Side note: I get bummed out every time I see this thread. Just salting the wound Not !!!!!! Only if the issues are part of the OSX specific code base. Are they gonna make it? GC has some intuitive UI problems initially and a few quirks but it is very very powerful.

I suspect it does. SurfingLamb wrote:. But where is the problem. P1 pedal data or recording with Garmin Head Unit? I believe that Powertap haven't enabled those metrics for the P1's yet, though I also have a Garmin headunit so perhaps someone with a Joule headunit can confirm? Thanks, Andrew - I'll give it a try this weekend! JustinNorCal wrote:. If all sports are selected on the right and I click on run pack it's giving me totals for all sports, not just running. Supersquid wrote:.

For Andrew Coggan. I have one file. It means negative power on left phase at 2 sec effort? Is it possible? How I can insert screenshot? Forum ask me url, but screen on my laptop. Post deleted by rpmfreestyle [ In reply to ]. Just downloaded windows version TP calculated todays swim at What about weigh in's?

My scale automatically uploads to TP. Will it transfer over to WKO too? Hopefully the weight, at least, is something they are working on. So I installed 4. But it did it twice. Is there an easy way to delete the duplicates, or do I need to delete them all and re add them? Wylde06 wrote:. Maybe my internet ninja skills are weak today..

Its an option in 3. The carriage return in the post-activity notes didn't seem to migrate from v3 to v4. This really impacts the readability. Any luck with figuring out where to put a starting value in for ctl and atl? I see where it should be where you would change the CTL and ATL constant but it doesnt seem to be part of the software.. Thanks, I'll double-check the calcs later today. On first look, though, everything appears correct, at least from the WKO4 perspective. Out of curiosity, what brand of powermeter do you use?

Any thoughts? Was my FTP actually only in when I was doing for almost an hour? Note - I did fix 6 incorrect data points of 1 second where the power was incorrect. The mFTP actually went down afterwards. I know i'm asking on , but the last 90 days I have my FTP set at as based of a 20min test of watts, mFTP for the last 90 days is I'd like to know my zones are set correctly.

Willing to share any and all data I have. Tim WKO4. You will be prompted to enter your TrainingPeaks user name and password, create a name for your computer, and enter your registration code to active the software. If you are still within your trial period, you can click Continue Trial without entering a registration code.

The user name and password fields are limited to 50 characters. NOTE: If you have a coach TrainingPeaks account, simply enter your coach account login on this screen, and all your athletes and their data will be automatically pulled into WKO. WKO should now be open on your screen and beginning its first sync with TrainingPeaks.

Be sure to allow the first download to complete before closing WKO. We recommend setting your computer to stay awake and not power off or sleep until the download is complete. If the download is interrupted for any reason, you may need to perform another full download to finish importing all the workouts. Please read the following instructions carefully before installing WKO5. We do not recommend using both WKO4 and WKO5 at the same time, as it can cause errors and duplicates within your data.

It's important to back up data before making any change to your computer, and installing WKO5 is no exception. Before upgrading, follow these instructions to make a backup copy of your WKO4 data folder:. The second screen of the installation wizard will ask you to select a data folder.

WKO can take quite a bit of time to finish importing your WKO4 data and downloading data from TrainingPeaks, depending on how many athletes and years of data you have. Be sure to allow the compiling and first sync to complete before closing WKO. We recommend setting your computer to stay awake and not power off or sleep until the process is complete.

How to Install WKO5. Which installation option should I choose? New Install : Choose this option if you do not use TrainingPeaks to analyze your data. Click here to view the minimum hardware requirements for WKO5. There are no limitations to the trial; you'll get the full software.

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